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It's Fun to Play the Pianoforte ... Please Laissez passer It On! |  | | | 49 members (360Piano, clothearednincompo, blueviewlaguna., CraiginNZ, Calavera, bwv543, brennbaer, David B, Adem, 7 invisible), 1,005 guests, and 341 robots. | | Cardinal: Admin, Global Modernistic, Mod | | | OP  Junior Member Joined: May 2018 Posts: nineteen | In my search for my first grand piano, I have come beyond a 1989 Baldwin Model Fifty. The dealer is telling me that the piano is a one-owner pianoforte that has been played by a hobby pianist. He is offering it for around $8,800 with a 1 year dealer warranty and said it has been on the floor for a while because of the cosmetic damages around the brown wood instance. The dealer claims information technology is the all-time value i will always discover for this price if I don't mind the cosmetic issues. I played it and it sounded quite pleasant, a lilliputian fleck brighter than the audio I was looking for, but with my budget I tin't be likewise picky (to give you lot an idea of my audio preference, I would take a Bosendorfer over a Steinway any day). My alternative is a Ritmuller GH170R which will toll around $v,000 more which I prefer a fleck meliorate in sound correct now I call up (merely am not 100 % certain). One of the problems is that they are at different dealers and in completely different room acoustics which makes it hard to truly compare and while the Ritmuller definitely has a warmer sound, I'm non sure it is exactly what I was looking for either. Regarding resale value, the Ritmuller dealer is assuring me that the Ritmuller volition increase in value and the Baldwin continue to decrease and of course the dealer that has the used Baldwin is telling me that an American made piano will never decline as much in value equally a Chinese piano would, fifty-fifty a Ritmuller. As well the audio deviation, I believe that the Baldwin Model L had a heavier action compared to the Ritmuller. Is this merely for this model or did these Baldwins take heavier actions in general? I had a difficult time playing fast thrills compared to the Ritmuller. Merely the dealer told me this is merely because I'm not used to a yard pianoforte yet and that having a heavier activity will really improve my playing in the long run. I believe I read somewhere that Baldwin quality over the years had fluctuated and that some years were better than others. Is 1988/1989 i of the "skilful" years? I took some pictures below and would welcome whatsoever opinions. If the feedback here is positive I will go alee and pay the money to rent an independent piano tech to perform an evaluation/appraisal before making a final conclusion. Google Photos Folder:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BUPdx2EwSAGYaP447 Lots on my listen, I will appreciate whatever input! | | | Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: vii,824 7000 Post Club Fellow member  | | 7000 Post Club Member Joined: October 2012 Posts: seven,824 | If the case harm is what's showing the photos, information technology could probably exist cleaned up by someone who does furniture repair. If that's all that's keeping this piano from selling, then I'm surprised that the dealer hasn't had it cleaned upwardly. I don't know where you're located, but in my neck of the forest $8800 wouldn't be a bad price for an Fifty in expert shape, specially from a dealer, merely not keen either (especially with cosmetic problems). I'g concerned with the action issues you lot noted. Relative to the other piano I can't say, but a Baldwin shouldn't have a particularly heavy action. It may need some attending. A Baldwin Fifty tin be a very squeamish piano. Some say that the 1980s vintage Baldwins had increased QA problems. Accept it inspected before you purchase, like you should any 2nd-hand pianoforte. The technician you rent to do the inspection can probably give you lot a better idea virtually the value in your marketplace area. It sounds like the dealer is blowing some sunshine at you to encourage you to buy ("keen value," heavy activeness will improve your playing, etc). | | | Joined: October 2013 Posts: 417 Full Member | | Full Member Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 417 | rhawke dealer quote- "I'm not used to a thou piano all the same and that having a heavier action volition actually improve my playing in the long run." There are many upstanding dealers out at that place, several who generously mail hither on PW. Unfortunately in that location are besides many unscrupulous ones who make statements like the ane above and others like: voicing after you go the piano home volition be able to make it audio whatever way yous want, or the piano is brand new and will wear in and sound will be much better in your living room than the showroom, or your piano is an investment that will appreciate in the future. The listing goes on and on. Run don't walk from dealers who make statements like these. | | | Joined: May 2018 Posts: nineteen Junior Member | | OP Junior Member Joined: May 2018 Posts: nineteen | @SanFrancisco. Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I take heard exactly the voicing comment from the second major dealer in Houston. I wish I could run to other dealers but that would mean a iii-iv hr drive to another major city in Texas. So I'll have to alive with them and just make my decision without listening to their sales talk ... thank you to this forum, I feel much better about that than a week agone. | | | Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,060 1000 Post Order Member | | thou Mail Club Member Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,060 | Happy New year's day Regarding the OP's questions: - Regarding resale value, the Ritmuller dealer is assuring me that the Ritmuller will increase in value and the Baldwin continue to decrease and of course the dealer that has the used Baldwin is telling me that an American made piano will never pass up as much in value as a Chinese piano would, fifty-fifty a Ritmuller.
- ---Pianos, with the possible exceptions of ones owned by celebrities, eastward.1000., Liberace, are wasting assets. They decline in value. Every bit to American pianoforte values failing less than Chinese pianos, I recall it would depend on the make specifics.
- "I played information technology and it sounded quite pleasant, a petty scrap brighter than the sound I was looking for..." + "Also the sound difference, I believe that the Baldwin Model L had a heavier action compared to the Ritmuller..."
- ---At the schoolhouse where I teach we have a number of niggling used Baldwin L pianos from 1982. When I say little, I mean... little. There is barely even minimal grooving in the hammers. Regarding the heaviness of the action - if you are used to playing on a worn upright, or an electronic keyboard, playing a less worn piano -- with a heavier action -- will feel heavier, be it a grand, or an upright. Every bit to the heaviness, it is my personal experience that Baldwin and Steinway pianos from the 80's had heavier feeling actions than Bosendorfers of that period. Though in that location is much dispute about touchweight, I believe that action weights have been getting lighter in contempo years, then the Ritmuller, if it's modeled on current German pianos (except Steinway) would feel lighter. As a final comment on the Baldwin - I can't speak to 1989, just 1982, merely what I tin say is that the Baldwin L, similar the SF-10 and SD-10 is a robustly made instrument, built to last. Given the usage scenario you describe, an eighty'due south L should terminal y'all for many years.
- I have non played the Ritmuller, but I did become to their website. I'k impressed by what I read of the build quality and materials used. The Chinese manufacturers accept hired many highly qualified manufacture professionals as consultants - several of whom post regularly on PW - and there is every possibility that the Ritmuller could be a bargain at its price indicate. I suspect the action would weigh out lighter than the Baldwin, the sound would exist different. And, it would be a NEW piano with the manufacturer's warranty in place.
- "...picky (to requite you an idea of my sound preference, I would take a Bosendorfer over a Steinway any solar day). .."
- ---Well, this is interesting. Of all the American pianos, information technology was Baldwin that sounded most like a Steinway. Given what I read nearly the Ritmuller, it seems they, every bit other Chinese manufacturers, are modeling their sound on European preferences (with the exception of Boston - Steinway). The Ritmuller might be the better pick for you on this criterion.
If you like the Baldwin, hire an contained tech to evaluate it in its current status. Ask about voicing. Make sure he measures impact weight for you. Though imperfect, it's better than "it feels heavy" when making a purchase decision. Later that, it's a thing of your gustation and your budget. Oh, i more thing. given a clean bill of health on the Baldwin, I'd offering $7500. It volition cost you something to have the cosmetics fixed; the piano HAS sat north the sales floor for some time. I suspect there's still some turn a profit in it for the dealer at that price bespeak. Can't injure to inquire. Good luck with your buy. | | | Joined: May 2001 Posts: 32,189 Yikes! 10000 Post Society Member | | Yikes! 10000 Postal service Club Member Joined: May 2001 Posts: 32,189 | rhawke dealer quote- "I'm not used to a grand piano even so and that having a heavier action volition actually improve my playing in the long run." At that place are many upstanding dealers out there, several who generously post here on Pow. Unfortunately at that place are also many unscrupulous ones who brand statements like the ane above and others like: voicing after you go the piano home will be able to brand it sound any manner y'all want, or the piano is make new and will wear in and sound will be much better in your living room than the showroom, or your piano is an investment that will capeesh in the future. The list goes on and on. Run don't walk from dealers who make statements similar these. The statements you added are valid examples of false dealer claims just the one you quoted could definitely be true(unless the Baldwin'south action is particularly heavy) peculiarly the part about non being used to a grand pianoforte'south activeness. | | | Joined: Feb 2017 Posts: 137 Full Member | | Full Member Joined: Feb 2017 Posts: 137 | When I was shopping, I noticed the Baldwins in particular seemed like they had heavy dampers; I establish a greater change in perceived touch weight with the damper pedal down over when it was up. That difference was not every bit noticeable with the other makers. Afterward I bought my Baldwin M, I quickly learned to half pedal if I wanted fast just nonetheless clean runs and trills.
Peter
1949 Baldwin M
currently working on Brahms op. 10 Ballades, f-minor sonata and 2nd concerto
Mendelssohn Songs Without Words and Due east modest Prelude and Fugue
any strikes my fancy today. | | | Joined: October 2007 Posts: 698 500 Post Club Fellow member | | 500 Post Club Member Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 698 | Keep looking. The fourscore'due south Baldwins had an action that was made in United mexican states. Not proverb that information technology couldn't accept been good but this particular iteration of the Baldwin activeness was very poorly constructed and does not agree upward well in hard utilise. The parts were made by machines purchased from the then going bankrupt Pratt Read manufactory in Connecticut. The tooling had been compromised past a flood in the manufacturing plant prior to selling it to Baldwin. I personally went there when I worked for Baldwin and reported on the dramatic inconsistencies that I found. Manufacturing in Conway and Truman, Arkansas was commonly shut down due to the inability of the actions coming out of the Pratt Win factory in Juarez. This was non the mistake of the Mexican workers but the fault of the tooling and poor conditions at the factory with no control over the humidity and lack of concern for the orientation of the grain. Every bit a outcome holding tolerances was incommunicable. In very lite use, information technology may exist ok but non suitable for a serious pianist who is planning to put a bunch of miles on information technology. If you lot put a new activity in information technology, it might agree upwardly well if there are no belly work issues with the soundboard and pivot block. Price it as though information technology needs $8000 worth of action work. | | | Joined: November 2009 Posts: 4,244 4000 Post Club Member | | 4000 Post Order Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: four,244 | I have nothing to add regarding the condition of the piano since I've never played a Baldwin in my life, nor actually seen one in the flesh, and Sally Phillips has said all that tin exist said about Baldwins from that era.... Only regarding the dealer telling you that a heavier action will improve your playing - that's really a pretty vague statement. I prefer pianos with a lighter action, and some of the finest Steinway concert grands I have played, including most recently some make new Hamburg ones in London, have what many would consider a light action. Heavy or sluggish feeling actions are usually indicative of a problem, which could be anything from bad regulation to bad workmanship to bad parts, humidity bug, etc etc etc, and dealers will sometimes only say something to become the piano sold, which is an observation not a criticism. I've had tuners and dealers say to me in the by "this pianoforte volition make all other pianos experience easier", but really all it does is give y'all fatigue and strain injury. From how you depict the action information technology sounds similar you don't relish playing it. Don't spend 8800 dollars on a pianoforte that you don't like. | | | Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: ane,060 1000 Post Gild Member | | 1000 Post Society Member Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: one,060 | Ah, to be wrong, in public, on January 1st. Sigh.
Based on Ms. Phillips' expert comments, sure looks like the Baldwin is a non-starter.
Perhaps we were just lucky at our schoolhouse to get early 80'southward instruments that take lasted as long as ours without meaning problems.
Forum readers - whatever experience with recent Ritmuller instruments?
Any recordings of the audio of the instruments? | | | Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: iv,244 4000 Mail service Lodge Member | | 4000 Post Club Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: iv,244 | Ritmuller I think is quite expert. I've played a couple of uprights, they weren't stellar but they were too priced accordingly. I'd personally exist tempted to shop around and see what else is available. What kind of price does the Kawai GL50 come in at over there in the USA? I idea it was a very good piano when I played one in Vienna. The Pearl River mill does produce some squeamish pianos now. In the past the ones I have tried have needed a lot of grooming piece of work, regulation, voicing, sorting out things in the pedals etc, just when they're serviced properly they can audio very squeamish. I played one with the Bentley name on it nearly 3 years ago and it was regulated beautifully. What I can't tell you is how long they terminal under strenuous practice conditions, but perchance in that location are people on this forum who tin tell you. | | | Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: vii,824 7000 Post Lodge Member | | 7000 Post Club Member Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: vii,824 | In 2008, the last year Baldwin produced the Artist grands, Larry Fine'south "The Pianoforte Book" put Baldwin in a category labeled "High Performance Pianos," and describes the pianos in that category every bit "built to a standard that favors loftier-performance blueprint, features, materials and workmanship." Fine documents a quality trouble in the 1980s, just doesn't condemn the brand. Reasonable people acknowledge the QA problem, but this carte blanch, wholesale condemnation of Baldwins just comes from one source. And it doesn't seem to square with reality. Owners of these pianos take defended them. Former Baldwin dealers have defended them. Baldwin built and sold thousands of pianos in this era, and I don't hear any other former Baldwin employee bashing them. I'chiliad not going to twist the OP's arm to buy the Baldwin, but if he's interested in it, he should simply accept it inspected, similar 1 should do with whatsoever 2nd paw piano. Improve the advice of a tech who's actually inspected the piano in question, than the communication of someone who summarily rejects every Baldwin produced after 1980. That's irrational. Let a tech determine hands-on how much action work is needed (if whatever). If the OP bought the the Baldwin, and were fifty-fifty to invest the dramatic $8000 in activity work, he'd still save more than than $fifty,000 over the cheapest Steinway, and nearly $80,000 over a similarly sized Steinway. Fine said that this grouping were "wonderful instruments, and some of the all-time values in the pianoforte world," and they all the same are! It'southward been said that Steinway dealers don't similar to compete with used Steinways. I suspect that they don't want to lose sales to second hand Baldwins either. The fact of the matter is that a lightly used Baldwin Artist grand--or i that'due south been well cared for--represents a astounding value now, just similar in 2008. The Baldwin L is a very nice piano. If a given specimen is defect costless, and in good shape, no 1 should be discouraged from purchasing it simply considering of the yr it was built. | | | Joined: Jan 2018 Posts: 3,487 3000 Post Club Member | | 3000 Mail Society Member Joined: Jan 2018 Posts: 3,487 | In 2008, the last twelvemonth Baldwin produced the Creative person grands, Larry Fine's "The Pianoforte Book" put Baldwin in a category labeled "High Performance Pianos," and describes the pianos in that category as "built to a standard that favors high-performance design, features, materials and workmanship." Fine documents a quality problem in the 1980s, but doesn't condemn the make. Reasonable people acknowledge the QA problem, only this menu blanch, wholesale condemnation of Baldwins only comes from i source. And it doesn't seem to foursquare with reality. Owners of these pianos have defended them. Sometime Baldwin dealers accept dedicated them. Baldwin built and sold thousands of pianos in this era, and I don't hear any other former Baldwin employee bashing them. I'yard not going to twist the OP's arm to buy the Baldwin, but if he'south interested in it, he should simply take it inspected, like ane should exercise with any second hand piano. Better the advice of a tech who'southward actually inspected the piano in question, than the advice of someone who summarily rejects every Baldwin produced subsequently 1980. That'due south irrational. Allow a tech decide easily-on how much activity piece of work is needed (if any). If the OP bought the the Baldwin, and were even to invest the dramatic $8000 in action piece of work, he'd withal salvage more $50,000 over the cheapest Steinway, and nearly $80,000 over a similarly sized Steinway. Fine said that this grouping were "wonderful instruments, and some of the best values in the pianoforte world," and they still are! Information technology's been said that Steinway dealers don't like to compete with used Steinways. I suspect that they don't want to lose sales to second manus Baldwins either. The fact of the matter is that a lightly used Baldwin Creative person g--or ane that's been well cared for--represents a phenomenal value at present, only like in 2008. The Baldwin L is a very nice pianoforte. If a given specimen is defect free, and in expert shape, no one should exist discouraged from purchasing information technology simply because of the year it was congenital. +ane 
![[Linked Image]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_vcZOEOX9cL1ccFTkoQVV2_P6tGBa8ffjwJwmoRpHxgRWgiKalQ36CU-Zb78rnEgXyB9uY0-R3dtjK9ZuaQM7KsxprhS9_HFO_wOWchDS5C_03uZOIbMoVe7pUH=s0-d) | | | Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 698 500 Postal service Club Member | | 500 Mail Lodge Fellow member Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 698 | The section that you quoted from Piano Buyer was written long after other management took over and quality issues were addressed. I accept often spoken about the issues with the 80's Baldwin product. I have opinions almost other brands likewise only practice non voice them because I accept never been an employee nor do I have outset manus information about their production. In the example of Baldwin, I was there in their factories and traveled among the dealers on their behalf. I saw first hand the bug, having been sent to the factory to identify the bug. | | | Joined: February 2005 Posts: 3,636 3000 Post Club Member | | 3000 Post Club Member Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,636 | Regarding resale value, the Ritmuller dealer is assuring me that the Ritmuller will increase in value and the Baldwin continue to decrease and of course the dealer that has the used Baldwin is telling me that an American made piano will never turn down every bit much in value as a Chinese piano would, fifty-fifty a Ritmuller.
This is absolutely BS. No piano increases in value in the short term. Pianos are like cars, the moment a new piano is sold it loses significant proportion of its value. If pianos increased in value dealers wouldn't sell them until they could realize that increase (sell at the higher price). A used piano will generally concur its value better. | | | Joined: Aug 2016 Posts: 226 Total Fellow member | | Full Fellow member Joined: Aug 2016 Posts: 226 | Unfortunately, I have heard exactly the voicing comment from the 2d major dealer in Houston. Amen. So have I. I tried a piano recently and point-blank asked the dealer (who is as well a technician) if it was "concert ready." He said "yep." I then painstakingly walked him through the inconsistencies in the regulation, how thin the upper register was, how "twangy" several notes were, etc. Of course, his response was finer "Just buy it and we can voice it in your home." Yeah, like twangy strings and a lousy upper annals are simply an acoustics trouble unique to his floor . . . (A quick tip to all dealers reading this: If a potential buyer is playing Rachmaninoff on your pianos, he's probably non a full ignoramus.) It's gotten to the point that I'm virtually ready to just exclusively shop from private sellers. No sales tax, and no sales shenanigans. I've found some outstanding pianos on a detail website (which I won't mention because I'thou non here to advertise for anyone). I even flew to another state to try one and had it professionally inspected. I ultimately chose to non purchase it for purely subjective reasons, but information technology was objectively an outstanding pianoforte for an outstanding price. Anyway, I can certainly relate to your pianoforte shopping woes. | | | Joined: May 2018 Posts: nineteen Junior Fellow member | | OP Junior Member Joined: May 2018 Posts: 19 | Wow cheers and so much for all these thoughtful answers. I did not wait that much item! I'thou was already leaning towards the Ritmuller even before reading some of the quality outcome posts. I think if I had total confidence in the Ritmuller dealer, I might take already taken the plunge and made them a business firm offering on one. Merely the instruments there don't announced prepped properly and when I pointed that out I got exactly the aforementioned answer as Piano90X. "Voicing and tuning in your dwelling house will fix all of these bug". Another sales consultant at the same dealer was existence honest and told me "We have around 100 pianos hither, we don't prep and tune the pianos all the time, that would drive up the cost too much and everybody wants a depression cost. Most people that come here still buy the pianos and don't hear anything wrong with them even when they are a bit out of tune or non voiced consistently. Tell us if you really like a detail piano and we can accept it tuned for you before yous buy information technology" When I asked why more than half of the pianos in the "used piano room" were out of tune, she straight upwards told me that they turn off the heat at night. The main problem with that is that I can't stand up to play an out of tune piano for even 2 minutes. How am I supposed to find a potentially good sounding used pianoforte if it is out of tune? I don't accept the experience to be able to tell ... "oh if this 1 were in tune, it would be perfect". Out of melody everything just sounds horrible to me. | | | Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: ane,825 1000 Post Society Member | | grand Post Lodge Member Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,825 | The section that you quoted from Piano Buyer was written long later other management took over and quality issues were addressed. I have often spoken about the issues with the eighty'southward Baldwin production. I have opinions about other brands as well but practice not vocalism them because I have never been an employee nor do I take first hand data almost their production. In the case of Baldwin, I was at that place in their factories and traveled among the dealers on their behalf. I saw showtime hand the bug, having been sent to the factory to place the problems.
He's no longer active here but noted piano designer Del Fandrich, also a Baldwin ex-employee, too commented on the quality problems with the Mexican built actions. Sally is not alone. I accept a used Baldwin on my "moving up to a grand one twenty-four hours" listing. I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the Baldwin out of hand but would consider investing in an inspection. I have few doubts about Ritmullers being first-class for the coin. I DO take my doubts about the Ritmuller dealer and his statements most future value. If you're used to a digital. Virtually audio-visual pianos volition feel heavy. My Pramberger certainly did. At present five years after, I don't notice information technology. I don't know if information technology played in, I adapted or a combination of both but as an anecdotal betoken, there information technology is. Kurt
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Co-owner (by marriage) and part fourth dimension client service rep at an electronic musical equipment repair shop. | | | Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 255 Full Fellow member | | Total Member Joined: April 2016 Posts: 255 | Why non endeavour making an offer on the Ritmuller contingent on your approval later it is properly prepped in the store. The dealer will have incentive to melody and prep the piano and you lot will get a true flick of what you're buying. If they won't practise that, I'd motility on. Last edited by jarobi; 01/02/19 03:34 PM. | | | Joined: May 2006 Posts: seven,234 7000 Mail service Society Member | | 7000 Post Club Member Joined: May 2006 Posts: 7,234 | Wow, rhawke, that sounds frustrating. When I’ve been seriously shopping, I take been fortunate enough to have (at the very least) recently tuned pianos to play. I ever made a addiction of calling ahead a few days before visiting, to make an appointment to see a specific piano(s). The store contacts I made usually took the hint, making sure things were set to evidence. I might have lower expectations for a private seller, merely your situation turns that on its caput! | | Forums43 Topics212,718 Posts3,185,763 Members105,045 | | Most Online15,252
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